(Betsy Amster, Elise Capron, Rebecca Friedman, Aimee Liu, Angela Rinaldi) Many writers believe that the only or best literary agents are located on the East Coast, but West Coast agents beg to differ. The major publishing houses may still reside in and around New York City, but major authors live throughout the world, and Pacific Coast agents have found that literary representation outside New York may actually be to an author's advantage. Join this panel of West Coast pros to learn how they navigate a publishing world without borders.

Published Date: September 7, 2016

Transcription

Speaker 1 (00:00:04):

Welcome to the A W P podcast series. This event was recorded at the 2016 A W P conference in Los Angeles. The recording features Betsy Amster, Elise Cap prone, Rebecca Friedman, Amy Lou, and Angela Rinaldi. You will now hear Amy Lou provide introductions.

Speaker 2 (00:00:33):

Okay, welcome. This is Agents Without Border. I am Amy Lou. I am not an agent, but I am the author of three novels, flash House, cloud, mountain and Face, and two works of nonfiction gaining in Solitaire. And I teach in Goddard College's M F A program in creative writing at Port Townsend, Washington. And I've hosted lots of agent panels, so that's why I'm moderating this one. So the description for this, for those of you who aren't sure where you are, in case you want to make sure that you're in the right room, many writers believe that the only or best literary agents are located on the East Coast, but West Coast agents beg to differ. The major publishing houses may still reside in and around New York City, but major authors live throughout the world and Pacific Coast agents have found that literary representation outside New York may actually be to the author's advantage.

Speaker 2 (00:01:26):

This panel's participants span several generations of West Coast agents who represent dozens of nationally and internationally award-winning authors. So I'm going to start off by thanking you for coming at the very end of this a w p. And I know it's been a long conference, so I'm pretty impressed that we've actually pretty much filled the room. That's great. And I want to tell you who's on the panel. So let's see down at the end. We have for more than a decade, Elise Capron has been an agent at the Dykstra Literary Agency, which was established over 30 years ago and represents a wide range of genres. Elise's most interested in representing adult literary fiction and narrative nonfiction particularly. History. Next to Elise is Angela Rinaldi, president of the Angela Rinaldi Literary Agency, which was founded in 1994. She has held managerial and editorial positions at Penguin Random House and Simon and Schuster.

Speaker 2 (00:02:30):

She founded the book publishing program at the Los Angeles Times, and she represents both fiction and nonfiction. Next up is Betsy Amster, president of Betsy Amster Literary Enterprises. Before opening her agency, she spent 10 years as an editor at Random House. Her clients include bestselling novelists, Maria Amparo, Eson, joy Nicholson, MacArthur fellow Will Allen, and psychologist Elaine Aaron. And finally to my left is Rebecca Friedman, who worked at Greenberger Associates, Sterling Lord Istic and the Hill Nadel Agency before starting her own agency in 2013. She's interested in commercial and literary fiction with a focus on literary novels of suspense, women's fiction, contemporary romance, and young adult as well as journalistic nonfiction and memoir. Okay, so I'm going to throw out some questions and hopefully we'll just get a conversation going here. I'll save some time at the very end, at least 15 minutes for your questions. And hopefully we'll get to this issue of West Coast versus East Coast as well as some of the nitty gritty about getting an agent and working with an agent. So first off, just the basic question, is there a difference between a West Coast agent and an East Coast agent, ways they operate access to publishers, authors they'll take on, et cetera, et cetera? Anybody want to go first?

Speaker 3 (00:04:01):

Yeah, well of course my answer is going to be no. Because first of all, I think everyone here has had New York background and we're in New York a lot and editors know us. They use us as their first readers. In case you didn't know that we all represent really wonderful books and that's how we get known to editors. I was just explaining to someone the way we work now, you could be on the moon and sell something because we don't talk on the phone anymore. Everything's done by email. We pitch by email, we send attachments. You can get a response from an editor within 15 minutes to an hour with an email, but you can't get a phone call return. So it really is, I don't think there's any difference. It really is the quality of the material that you're sending out.

Speaker 4 (00:04:59):

I feel that being a West Coast agent is part of my brand identity. I really like being a West Coast agent. I like having a long leash from New York. I spent time in New York. It's a great place. I loved getting my start in publishing, but I now like my distance from New York, we do all, we have to go to New York, we have to know the editor's taste. I'm sure we all operate pretty much the same way. We may have different tastes, but they're responsible ways of being agents and I'm sure that we all do that. The great thing about being a West Coast agent with a lot of West Coast clients is that we are in this together. We are co-conspirators in the same time zone as a lot of our clients. I'm sure we all represent people across the country, but there is still something fun about having lunch with your clients. I used to live in Silver Lake, I live in Portland now. I used to have a lot of clients in Silver Lake. I mean it got that kind of like my neighborhood, my clients, and that is just really fun. And part of what we're doing here don't you think is having some fun in our role as super readers.

Speaker 5 (00:06:11):

I also think wherever you are, there's different ideas floating around. And so there's certain ideas of what works maybe in New York that people wouldn't be interested in in other areas they think. But there's a huge country and I find that the people and the agents who work on the West Coast are more open to different ideas. It doesn't mean that there aren't people like that in New York as well of course. But I do think overall there's just this openness to not exactly what's on the bestseller list this minute that you find out here that you might not find back there.

Speaker 6 (00:06:59):

I mean, I do think our day-to-day is a little bit different. I mean, the agents who I know who are in New York are going to happy hour on a more regular basis. I mean, I think more of a casual kind of day-to-day relationship does develop and that is absolutely different than how my day works. But like everyone said, we go to New York a lot, those end up being very, very focused sales trips. We still develop amazing relationships. I guess I'm probably the only person on the panel who has not worked in New York publishing. I've always been in California. We're based down in San Diego, although Sandy, my boss, Sandy Dykstra, who founded the agency 35 years ago, I think now is a New Yorker through and through. So we have our little bit of, I think traditional New York agenting in San Diego with our lovely ocean view.

Speaker 6 (00:07:51):

But I love the dynamic and I love having our office with everyone together, talking about books, really focused on the books. We also happen to represent quite a few clients who live in Manhattan, which is really funny when you start mailing a galley to California and then mailing the sample back to the author in New York, it gets a little silly. But I love being a West Coast agent and we have a great community. There are a lot more agents in California and up and down the West coast than you would think. We have a wonderful network. There are a lot of us in San Diego and it's great. It's really dynamic and very active.

Speaker 2 (00:08:28):

Speaking to that, how about the geography of publishing? Is that changing or is it true that most of the publishers that you deal with are still New York publishers or is that diversifying as well?

Speaker 3 (00:08:39):

It's still mainly New York. It's still mainly New York. That's always our first go-to. When you do your first round of submissions, it's usually the mainstream houses.

Speaker 5 (00:08:51):

I do have editors that I sort of grew up with. We at the same time, who are now moving to different parts of the country and their publishing houses are open to them still working there. I have a friend in Pittsburgh who works at Penguin who I have a lot of books with. And so I think that they're, it's going to take probably a hundred more years because very, very slow to change. But the fact that there's a few of them I think is interesting. And I think it'll also be interesting for what kind of books they end up publishing as well because I think that there's just different interests, as I said, depending on where you are.

Speaker 2 (00:09:28):

So talk, you've all mentioned that your way of working your daily routine is a little bit different than a New York agent's daily routine. You want to speak to that and tell us what that routine is like and actually how often you do go to New York to have those meetings?

Speaker 3 (00:09:47):

Well, I think we're all doing the same thing, which is reading submissions and then doing administrative work. I mean, we might be throwing the gym in there at 10 o'clock in the morning because we've been up at six or seven looking at emails and maybe you can flake a little bit more, but because we work by email now, you can really work any time of the day or night. So our days are really reading material and doing administrative stuff and meeting with clients.

Speaker 4 (00:10:21):

We're kind of on New York hours, so you might find us at seven o'clock in pajamas in front of our computers and we probably work possibly even longer hours, but we have this blissful feeling starting at about two in the afternoon of they're not in the office anymore

Speaker 2 (00:10:41):

Like stockbrokers. So apart from having lunch with your Silver Lake agent, if you happen to live in Silver Lake, are there other advantages for a new author in working with an agent outside of New York, of the New York scene?

Speaker 3 (00:10:57):

Well, we're not New York centric. I think Betsy and a couple of, and my colleagues here have hit on that we are not New York centric. I think we're much more open to material that's outside of New York, whereas I think a lot of New York editors, they don't always get what we're doing out here. And honestly, they do rely on us to bring us the most interesting material. And so I think probably the biggest thing is we're not New York centric,

Speaker 4 (00:11:27):

But we're trying to appeal to New Yorkers. So we have to figure out how to package you in such a way that we make you appealing to New Yorkers, even as you are not a New Yorker and it's a fun challenge.

Speaker 2 (00:11:42):

Any examples, any illustrations you can give of how you approach that challenge? Well,

Speaker 4 (00:11:51):

Portland has a very avid food scene and it is on the radar of New York, which is ever so handy for me. I cannot begin to tell you, it's like a gift that has been given to me that Portland has been covered in the New York Times so much. So you take advantage of any little thing that comes your way where their newspaper of record has covered it. What a great thing that just gives you leverage. There are other forms of leverage too. There's a kind of name dropping you start doing in publishing. I often find when I'm describing, I'm from Cleveland, my sister's in St. Paul, Minnesota. I will visit her, I'll start talking about some of the books that I'm representing and I'll do it in that New York publishing talk. Bill Clinton gave Will Allen a quote, and I'll see my lovely Midwestern sister and brother-in-law sort of drawback for me because I'm doing, it's like she's bragging, but that's what you learn how to do because the New Yorkers expect it. So that's part of the packaging too, but it's all actually really entertaining. I enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (00:13:05):

Anybody else got any interesting stories of pitching from outside New York to New York publishers that Well,

Speaker 3 (00:13:13):

The pitch is all about and once again, you could be on the moon and write a pitch as long as it's a good one and you know who the editors are that are going to spark to it. And when you're writing a pitch, it's always good to keep in mind cover copy because I think that really encapsulates the material. So whether you're pitching from New York or you're pitching from the West coast, we're doing the same thing.

Speaker 6 (00:13:41):

I want to say too, this isn't just about thinking about what will appeal to New York, but this is about thinking about our relationships with each editor, which is a crucial part of why having an agent matters is because we have years and years and years of built up relationships with each of these individual people and we know what they personally are looking for. I know this person loves Chihuahuas or whatever the case may be, and we really do tailor those pitches based on those personal relationships.

Speaker 2 (00:14:14):

Back to the geography, we're at a W P and of course the entire book show is filled with small presses from all over the world, certainly all over the country anyway. And I know that probably a lot of you are wondering what the connection might be could be between some of those small presses and literary agents. And this is always a tricky question, but do you deal with small presses at all and when would you do that and how would that happen?

Speaker 6 (00:14:44):

I think our big question is can we add value to a relationship? You're talking about the really big houses, they expect you to have an agent, they expect to be negotiating with that agent when he or she sells your book to them. First of all, let me say it's so exciting to go down to the book fair. I've spent a lot of time down there and wander around and see all these wonderful smaller houses that are doing such amazing work. I've purchased way too many books in the last couple of days and it's just fabulous. But generally, the smaller presses we are going to wait. They're not going to be our first round places and sometimes it may or may not make sense for us to represent you in the sale to a really small press because they're going to have a small staff, limited funds. They're only going to negotiate an agreement to a certain extent. Are we really, again, that question adding value for you in that relationship? So that's what we keep in mind and kind of think about as we move forward with a submission.

Speaker 3 (00:15:47):

I'd like to add that a lot of the editors at the small houses are looking for the same type of material and the same quality that they are at the big houses. Also, I mean, we've been joking about this word propulsive. We've been sometimes when something is rejected and editor will say it's not propulsive enough, which translated means it doesn't have the urgency. It doesn't have the tension, it's not gone girl. And the editors at the small houses know that word also. So yeah, I mean you're dealing with the same thing.

Speaker 5 (00:16:20):

I do think though, that there are some smaller houses that are very niche, but America's really big. So a niche of Shambala for example, which is a smaller press, but it's a lot of meditation and philosophy having to do with Eastern religions. I sold a book to them and it's done really, really well and they know how to reach an audience that I don't think some of the bigger houses would be able to reach. It was a book about cancer and how from a psychiatrist and how to care for your partner in that, which is something that a lot of people have to do and seem too niche for the bigger publishers, but has sold really, really well through Shambala. And then Hay House as well, I think does a really great job. Hay House, not Haiti, but that's another one. And some of the houses have a lot more money than you think. I've been surprised

Speaker 4 (00:17:21):

And to some extent it depends on whether the smaller houses are used to dealing with agents. Some really don't like dealing with agents because they kind of feel bullied and feel that agents don't understand their constraints. And then other houses have figured out how to deal with agents and those are much easier for us to deal with. One example in LA is Prospect Park books that Colleen Dunn Bates runs and they have a table. Of course the book room doesn't exist anymore, but they're a really good publisher. She deals with a lot of agents and has an incredibly author friendly contract, which is one thing if you are an agent dealing with smaller houses, you're going to look really closely at that contract. They can be really alarming. Colleen's happens to be profoundly author friendly, so that's a great thing.

Speaker 2 (00:18:12):

Okay, so let's turn that around and say you're an author and you've been published by only small presses so far and you would like to go more mainstream. And does that predispose you to that author? Does that make a difference? The fact that they've been published by small presses already? How does that work going in reverse?

Speaker 6 (00:18:37):

Well, I think it's very much a positive in terms of the fact that I see you've been through the process, you understand you're a professional about it. I think the question comes in, well really number one, what are your priorities? Is your priority now to try and make this leap to a bigger trade press and what does that mean? And then me thinking about who is your audience is really your best audience with these smaller presses who know how to reach your readership, that's a consideration. Or are you building a certain kind of platform, a certain literary career, you're winning the right awards and fellowships as you publish with small presses and now maybe now is the time to see if we can jump to an F S G or whatever the case may be. So I think it's just looking about the big picture of your career and what really makes sense for you.

Speaker 2 (00:19:32):

Anybody else have any stories of working with people coming out of the small press world or making that transition?

Speaker 3 (00:19:39):

I haven't really had any experience with that, but I could say what I would be looking for is if their next book was ready to be sent to mainstream houses, that would be the first criteria for me

Speaker 6 (00:19:53):

To mainstream.

Speaker 3 (00:19:54):

I'm sorry,

Speaker 2 (00:19:56):

I'm sorry. Yes. If it's ready to be sent to the mainstream, oh say. So this is transitioning for us to, what do you look for when an author first approaches you, and feel free to tell us war stories too, of positive and negative of people who have approached you and you've just been wowed, maybe somebody in recent history that's blown you away on the first pass. Any,

Speaker 4 (00:20:22):

I think we all probably look for the quality of the writing and a clear indication that the writer knows how to take the reader to give the reader an experience, understands that the reader is in their hands and that will come through in the writing. You may not be thinking about the reader in your early drafts, but at a certain point you have to start thinking about the reader. And we look for some indication that you understand the effect of your writing on the reader.

Speaker 5 (00:20:55):

I also think it's really good to know who you're sending it to. The most successful queries besides being well-written and telling a story like what Betsy was just saying, also I feel are targeted. So if someone writes to me and says, I'm sending you this novel because of red or know the work of another client of mine, it just helps because you feel like they actually want to work with you. And I think that's really smart for them and it's really smart for me to know that they have a particular reason why they picked me up,

Speaker 4 (00:21:32):

But they have to really mean it because don't you, I get a lot of letters where somebody has signed up for publisher's lunch and they're getting deal lunch and they've seen some sales of mine and they're basically writing back to me and telling me something I know about myself. Do you know what I

Speaker 5 (00:21:48):

Mean? Yes. But I think, I guess what I'm saying is it has to be in line with what you are doing. Yes. So if you send me a query and you say, I wrote a deeply psychological novel about the effects of war, and you tell me that you're sending it to me because you read Kara Hoffman's be safe, I love you. I'm going to be really interested in that, but if you tell me you're interested in me because of some young adult book I did on dating, it wouldn't make sense. So it's context. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:22:18):

I just like to add, for me it's engagement. How quickly I get into what's being sent to me, the voice, how quickly I feel. It's just me and the writer on the page. And I think what everybody else has said here, I think Rebecca makes a really good point. If you're writing science fiction, don't send me science fiction because I don't represent that. So I think it's important that you research agents' websites before you send them anything.

Speaker 5 (00:22:46):

Yeah, there's a lot of emails that come in that are like, dear sir, which is obviously my first tip off that maybe they don't know they're sending it to me. Right.

Speaker 2 (00:22:57):

Are there different criteria that you look for between fiction and creative nonfiction? I'll assume that most people here who are doing nonfiction are doing creative nonfiction as opposed to journalism criteria of what you're looking for in the work, how you judge it, how you determine whether it's something you would want to take on.

Speaker 6 (00:23:17):

Well, I do think with any kind of nonfiction, and I'll bring up that dreaded word platform and it's not platform exactly, I do put more weight on thinking about is this person building a certain brand for him or herself? Is she aware of that part of it? Because I think when it comes to nonfiction, I am thinking more, well, is this really what you're going to be doing for the long haul? Is this the subject you're interested in, the area you want to build your expertise in, et cetera. So that absolutely does carry more weight. It's also important to an extent on the fiction side, certainly, I mean I want to see that you're getting fellowships and building a certain type of career as well, but I think it probably does have a little more emphasis on the non-fiction side.

Speaker 3 (00:24:03):

I agree with that. Platform is really important with nonfiction, but I'm finding it increasingly with nonfiction and fiction. There's an urgency that I look for is why should I care about this and why will an editor care about this? And I think that works for both fiction and nonfiction. I want to care about a character. And it was a couple of months ago, there was a really good article in the Los Angeles Times by, I forget his first name. His last name is Goddard, and he's a script consultant and he consulted on the Martian, the self-published book by Andy Weir. And he said, often my notes say, why do I care about this person? All he wants is water. Find him water. That's the conflict, just is finding water. I think for me it's that tension, that narrative urgency that propulsively works in both fiction and nonfiction.

Speaker 4 (00:25:01):

And then we would like to see a certain amount of ammo. Ammo is sort of allied with platform and that might be you're getting an M f A, you're working with a writer who is supportive of you who might be known to the New York editors, and you mentioned that in your query letter you might have prior publications. All those things can show a kind of professionalism that we can leverage on your behalf.

Speaker 5 (00:25:31):

But I have to say in my experience, it hasn't mattered that much for fiction. I'm not saying it couldn't matter, but I've sold a lot of fiction where the person had absolutely no platform, but I've sold no nonfiction or creative nonfiction. Oh, that's not true, but almost true. The only nonfiction that I've been able to sell that's creative nonfiction that didn't have a platform, it was personal story, like a much more of a memoir then it didn't matter that much. But I think it usually does

Speaker 2 (00:26:06):

Any difference in when you're looking at the work of a first time author, a lot of the people here are going to be, maybe they've been published in literary journals. Does that color your reaction when you receive the pitch or the manuscript

Speaker 7 (00:26:25):

That it's first

Speaker 2 (00:26:25):

Time on?

Speaker 6 (00:26:28):

No, I mean, I think number one, we're all looking for the next new voice. So there's actually something very exciting about being a first time author. Sometimes in certain cases it can be easier, not easier is not exactly the right word, but then a string of books that maybe haven't done very well and you're battling with that history. So no, I think we're all looking for new voices and it's just about latching onto that us seeing how we can help you develop a career. I and I love to start working with someone at an early point in their career and really help build that. I don't think we've brought up yet that most agents these days, we are not just going in for the one book. We really are career consultants. We're looking at a much bigger picture, we're looking at the long haul. So I love when I can see kind of the whole path possible path for an author from an early point and be there for the whole ride of that. It's really a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (00:27:29):

There's been a lot of talk at this conference about diversity, and I wonder what the scene looks like in terms of diversity in the publishing world right now in terms of the authors that you're considering that were coming to you and the kind of reception that authors from various backgrounds are receiving in New York. And what is that whole scene of diversity from your perspective?

Speaker 3 (00:27:55):

I think it's very healthy, very, very healthy. I mean, just look at some of the lists and in Publishers Weekly, the first novels that are being published, there's a lot of diversity and a lot of multicultural fiction.

Speaker 5 (00:28:11):

From my perspective, it's not so healthy. I've had a few clients in the more recent past that were disappointed that they never found an agent or an editor of color. I cannot think of one agent of color.

Speaker 2 (00:28:31):

Wow.

Speaker 5 (00:28:32):

Can you? Oh yeah, absolutely. I don't know anybody. But in

Speaker 3 (00:28:35):

New York, yeah, there's quite a few

Speaker 2 (00:28:37):

Actually. Yeah, name some can we name?

Speaker 3 (00:28:44):

I know I've been at conferences and I'm sorry the names are just not with me right now, but I know there are.

Speaker 5 (00:28:52):

So I don't think that there aren't books coming out from diverse people, but I do think it's hard that nobody who's deciding whether or not or very few people or very few people, yes, a few people. And recently a lot of the people, not because of their race, but a few people who weren't white were fired all at once. And then I was trying to think of which editors were left that weren't white. It's very hard. There's very few editors that aren't white.

Speaker 4 (00:29:24):

Publishing itself is fairly famous for

Speaker 5 (00:29:26):

Oh yes,

Speaker 4 (00:29:27):

For not being that diverse, the actual companies and who works in them. But I think there is a lot of interest in diverse voices among the editors. But of course it would be better if were more actual diversity at the publishing companies too. Sometimes they can be kind of dimwitted about things because of that lack of diversity.

Speaker 5 (00:29:48):

And I think there's this big, sorry, there's a really big, and this isn't exactly the question, but there's this really big disconnect between what readers want to read and what publishers want to publish. And so what the race and diversity issue has a lot to do with that. That's not the only issue within that, but I think they have to think that they can reach an audience that they know how to reach to buy the book. And if they haven't had experience reaching a certain audience before then they don't think they can publish that book. I understand that on a business level. But on the other hand, I think it makes it difficult for a lot of books to be published.

Speaker 6 (00:30:37):

We have to keep in mind though, this is about more, I think than just the publishing industry itself, but it's thinking about what books are going to be reviewed in the New York Times. This is about a whole issue of media as well, I think, and the kind of books that unfortunately the industry thinks are going to get attention from certain places. I'm not, obviously not saying any of this is right, but I think there's a big ripple effect here that we have to think about that does take a long time to change. But I feel mean the Dykes Street agencies list has a lot of diversity and we really believe in representing all kinds of different people and stories and perspectives. And I really value our list for that reason. And I think agents, I think we're doing our best to get whatever we can out there. And part of that is being here and meeting also just all kinds of different people and all of us being supportive of each other and moving towards whatever future we can.

Speaker 2 (00:31:38):

So just one more question on this sort of diversity issue, because I hadn't planned to address this, but it sort of comes up, and I may be dating myself, but I remember what Amy Tan's books first came out. It was sort of like she was the Asian American writer and all the editors were looking for another Amy Tan. And so you can do that with another JPA Lahiri. And obviously diversity is hugely more complex than that. There are many more voices within each little group, but are they still pigeonholing to the extent that they used to?

Speaker 5 (00:32:16):

Meaning if you're going to write from an Indian perspective, it has to be written like Juah hearing.

Speaker 2 (00:32:22):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:32:24):

I'm sorry to be the disagreeing one here.

Speaker 5 (00:32:26):

No, go ahead. It's interesting,

Speaker 3 (00:32:27):

I think, I'm sorry I don't have a bunch of lists with me, but right now on the list there's, lemme see if I can pronounce that. Coats and there's so many books like that, Indian writers, Asian writers, I think the diversity, I still maintain that it's very healthy. I brought something, Amy, if I could just take a minute Sure. Please. To read it. This really struck me. There's a website called The Millions website and editors write for it. And this Jerry Howard, who's executive editor at Doubleday and a former colleague of mine. This is what goes through his mind when he reads one of our submissions. But as I read those submissions and edit those manuscripts on another cognitive plane, I am reality testing what I am reading. What are the books, the fabled and often tiresome comp titles are like this one. And how did those books sell?

Speaker 3 (00:33:22):

We're always fighting the Last War. Is it too similar to something we published recently or are publishing in the near future or to a book some other house has or shortly will publish or the visual images in the book that might be utilized on the cover? What writers of note can I bug for pre-publication blurbs is there's something about the author, some intriguing or unusual backstory, some charisma radiating off the page and maybe the author photo don't act so shocked that suggests that he or she will be a publicity asset. What might a reasonable advance be given the amounts that have been paid recently for similar books or might for some reason be thrown out the window and then he goes on to talk about the in-house support. But I think books, diversity is judged the same way as anything else. This is what the editor is thinking whether you're diverse or not.

Speaker 2 (00:34:15):

Great. Okay. That mention of the appearance does bring up a question and it's related to the issue of platform and all of that. I had a student once who was very obese and incredibly self-conscious about his obesity. And he was a wonderful writer, but he was convinced that he would never get published because of his weight. And I wonder realistically, honestly, how much does that factor in? And we are talking about the mainstream press here, not the,

Speaker 3 (00:34:46):

We don't send photos in with our proposals or novels. The photos don't go.

Speaker 2 (00:34:52):

Okay, good. I'm glad.

Speaker 6 (00:34:58):

Yeah, and I'll say too, I mean when I'm going through my submission pile, I don't know how old you are. I don't know what ethnicity you are. I don't know anything. And I am really, truly, I promise basing my decision, my initial decision about whether I want to pursue a project further at least to the next step on just whether those pages spark something in me. It really does come down to that this is an industry that as much as we can get into all the other things that drive it, I believe is at its heart still driven by the beauty of a book and us falling in love with it and carrying that passion along from you, the writer to us, the agents to the publisher, and then to a reading public. And that's why we stay in this industry and why I will always really believe in it. Yeah. So

Speaker 4 (00:35:50):

We're selling our enthusiasm all the way down the line. That's what we do. You

Speaker 2 (00:35:57):

So nuts and bolts questions. The issue of simultaneous submissions, always a big one. And how do you feel about receiving simultaneous submissions? We

Speaker 6 (00:36:09):

All expect, I mean, unless anyone differs to receive simultaneous submissions now, in fact, I think most of us will say it's not in your best interest to do an exclusive submission these days. It used to be different. When I started, I think it was a little different because submissions were coming in as paper. It was amazing. And I was putting them in a big bin together and they were there in front of me and I was flipping through them. And if I saw it was an exclusive, I could literally pull it out of that pile. Now we're all getting so much and it's all on email and it's overwhelming and it's all going into a folder in my Outlook that an exclusive submission number one can get lost. I might not see it right away and might not be able to give that project the priority I'd like to give it. And it really just, it could end up basically resulting in you waiting around for a long time, go out to a bunch of people. The only reason I think to go on exclusive is if you really have a very specific relationship with this person or they're your absolute number one dream agent. And even if you do do that, be sure that they acknowledge me, acknowledge your submission pretty quickly and give you some kind of timeline on what their reading time might be.

Speaker 2 (00:37:25):

And that was my next question is how quickly do you turn around? And let's look separately, I assume it's a separate answer for queries on nonfiction versus fiction manuscript. I'm assuming that, but maybe I'm wrong. So how long does it take you to turn around submissions respond to people?

Speaker 4 (00:37:46):

I think agents respond at least initially very quickly these days because we're all aware that other people are responding quickly. I think there is a kind of peer pressure on us to respond once we get a complete manuscript. To some extent all betts are off because that's really a commitment of time. But even there, I think we are all aware that time is of the essence. So I don't think sometimes you won't hear from somebody for six months, but that probably means they're not interested in your work. I think when we are interested and we base that sometimes incrementally maybe we've seen, I ask for the first three pages of anything narrative fiction or nonfiction embedded in your email. So if I like those first three pages, I then may ask for the first 50 and then I will ask for the whole manuscript. So it might be kind of an incremental thing, but I feel that we delay at our peril. Now,

Speaker 5 (00:38:44):

For me, it sort of depends on how busy I am with my current clients and I wish that wasn't the case, but sometimes I'll have a lot of current clients with a new manuscript all at the same time, and that has to take priority over new writers. So sometimes I'm really good and then sometimes I'm not.

Speaker 4 (00:39:08):

And that's probably true for all of us. I think that's correct.

Speaker 6 (00:39:12):

I will just say on the most kind of basic level, check each agent's website, they almost always will list the time period in which they'll get back to you or knock it back to you or whatever the case may be. They'll lay out the groundwork of how they respond. But if you do send a full manuscript into an agent who's asked for it in that case, just ask them what is your timeline that I can expect? When is it okay for me to check in with you?

Speaker 5 (00:39:37):

And then I think you should check in because if they said they'd get back to you in six weeks and they haven't, that's not annoying. That's smart and professional of you to ask them if they've had a chance to look at it.

Speaker 2 (00:39:50):

Do you all have submission guidelines on your websites? Yeah. Okay. So that's the easiest way to find out how you should submit. And what questions should writers ask prospective agents?

Speaker 5 (00:40:04):

Oh, this just goes to what Elise was talking about earlier about making sure you do simultaneous submissions. Unless there's like what she said, I think it's really, really smart, especially if you get more than one person interested because you really don't know what you want from the, or maybe you do know what you want from the relationship, but usually you don't know exactly what you want from the relationship until you talk to people and kind of find out how they work and how you click and what kinds of things you would get from them that you wouldn't get from other people. And I think that shopping around if that's a possibility is really helpful for you because then you really say some people don't care if they like their agent, they just want someone who's going to sell their book. And some people want to have more of a relationship with them where they can talk to them about their kids. And there's just a lot of different kinds of things. And the best way to tell what you like is by actually talking to the different people.

Speaker 4 (00:41:03):

And when you do, I think one question worth asking is you don't want to interview agents as if you're working for consumer reports. There shouldn't be this adversarial undertone. You want to gently interview them and conversationally interview them and you can say, how much will you keep me posted on the submission process? And what you want to hear is I will keep you posted in all respects, I'm going to tell you which editors I'm sending it to and I'm going to send you a copy of their rejection emails if they reject your book. Because you don't want to be in a position where you really have no idea what's going on. It's like this weird black box. And if you end up feeling like the agent is not right for you and yet you haven't been kept posted on where your work has gone, that makes it very difficult for another agent to take you on. So just making sure that the agent is really transparent about the process is helpful.

Speaker 6 (00:42:03):

I think too, when you get to the point where you've been offered representation and you're having this discussion, it's really important to make sure that you are both in sync in terms of vision for the project in terms of your career as a whole. In terms of working style, like Betsy mentioned, I think that's really important, just like knowing the best way to communicate with each other. If that agent is the type of person who gets back to you in three hours on an email or if they maybe take longer, just really have an understanding of that agent and make sure you're comfortable with that. Because if you go ahead and sign up and then six months down the road just these general kind of working styles are not meshing, it's going to be a potentially miserable relationship for you. So you really want to make sure you're comfortable with every aspect of it and that you put it all out on the table at that first moment when you're making this big decision that could take up many years of your life.

Speaker 3 (00:43:02):

I agree with all that. The one thing that I would ask is that everybody understands the financial situation, that agents do get commissions and they don't go away after the book is sold. That commission is in perpetuity. I think you should understand that royalties are paid twice a year and just how the business part of it works. Because so often I think authors just, they think if they get an advance, they don't understand where that money is going. And so that they wind up with could be very little of it, not very little of it, but there's chunks taken out or it doesn't come until the book earns out. So I think it's important that you understand the financial aspect of it also.

Speaker 2 (00:43:48):

And just on that sort of the business aspect, when do you sign a contract with your clients? Do you wait until the book is sold? Do you sign contracts with them when you begin to work with them, speak to the different,

Speaker 6 (00:44:04):

We sign contracts. I sign contracts with my clients as soon as I decide I want to represent their work, even if I know that we still have a lot of editorial work to do. I would say that probably all of us these days, I think most agents in general now, we do a lot of developmental work and a lot of editorial work with our clients before we go on sale. What does that mean and what can you expect when you do sign with an agent? I would say in most situations you're at least going through one to two revisions of your project before it goes out to market. The project you spent years on and really thought was as polished as possible, you might have to kind of rip apart. It's obviously not an ideal situation, but I have had a few cases with a big novel where we've had to spend six months working on it before we go on sale. That does sometimes happen. We only want to go out when it's right. But I'm representing you that whole time because I've decided I really, I'm investing my time, you're investing your time. Let's make this official and exclusive. It is a marriage and we're only going to work together.

Speaker 5 (00:45:10):

Great.

Speaker 2 (00:45:11):

Okay. Everybody's on the same. I have minority.

Speaker 5 (00:45:12):

Okay, go ahead. So I have other agents at my agency and some of them are former lawyers. So this does not go for them. I do not sign agreements with my clients. I will if people really want an agreement, but I have found that I have had to get people out of such horrible agents agreements over the past 10 years that obviously I'm not saying you guys have bad agency agreements. There are good agency agreements and the ones that people sign with my agency, not with me, but with my colleagues is totally fair. But I have seen such horrible abusive power that is hard for me to do that. And I've never, I mean, I'm sure this will now bite me in the ass, but I have never had somebody work with me for six months on a novel and then not let me sell it.

Speaker 5 (00:46:08):

That would be why I would want them to sign something, which I totally respect, but that has not happened yet. I'm sure it will now that I said that. But the thing about these agency agreements is, and I'm not saying for us, but a lot of them are very land grabby in a way that I don't think is appropriate. And I also think that they have terms in them like year terms that I also don't think is appropriate. So time I think sometime is appropriate. I just don't think in perpetuity is necessarily appropriate if they haven't sold your work. It is a handshake deal for me.

Speaker 6 (

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